I often leave unlimited upload/download and most people download from me at 300kb/s and upload at 2kb/s! Is there any way to make it more fair?
for example if I only download at 2kb/s from THAT PARTICULAR peer there should be a way to limit THAT PARTICULAR peer - others - please feel free to upload as much as you want, as long as it's fair!
Make seeding fairer with a tit-for-tat scheme!
Re: make it fare to the seeders!
I think you must re-invent the protocol to make it mor fair.
The Problem is: The ordinary user has a DSL or cable connection with maybe 256Kb upstream - limited to 200Kb. 5 peers are leeching, one of is you: 200/5 = 40Kb = 5KB. But who has only 5 Peers leeching? Usually there will be more. do the math...
Ergo: the ordinary user can't provide you with a lot of bandwidth, because their upstream is too slow. The downstream is much bigger (usually - at least here in Germany). So they leech where it's possible - YOU.
You may limit your upstream, or just be generous =)
The Problem is: The ordinary user has a DSL or cable connection with maybe 256Kb upstream - limited to 200Kb. 5 peers are leeching, one of is you: 200/5 = 40Kb = 5KB. But who has only 5 Peers leeching? Usually there will be more. do the math...
Ergo: the ordinary user can't provide you with a lot of bandwidth, because their upstream is too slow. The downstream is much bigger (usually - at least here in Germany). So they leech where it's possible - YOU.
You may limit your upstream, or just be generous =)
Last edited by theCrank on Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Favour seeders perhaps?
I was thinking there must be some way to make it more "fair" than limiting your upload speeds.
What if you give more bandwidth to those that give you more bandwidth? Would this favour the good guys more? I guess you'd have to give a certain amount first before you made the judgement on if they deserve more seeding than others because initially a new comer to the torrent wouldn't have anything to share.
Also it would make more sense if the tracker encourage the rarest bits in the torrent to be shared first. This would be a dynamic value I guess. One could also get a metric of the "spread" of the various bits in the network.
Just some ideas
What if you give more bandwidth to those that give you more bandwidth? Would this favour the good guys more? I guess you'd have to give a certain amount first before you made the judgement on if they deserve more seeding than others because initially a new comer to the torrent wouldn't have anything to share.
Also it would make more sense if the tracker encourage the rarest bits in the torrent to be shared first. This would be a dynamic value I guess. One could also get a metric of the "spread" of the various bits in the network.
Just some ideas
Re: make it fare to the seeders!
I'm sure that this already happens. The tit-for-tat nature of the protocol takes care of this behind the scenes. The end user should not (and does not) have to worry about this.
How do you know that that particular peer isn't uploading to 5 other leechers at rates far above what they are uploading to you. How do you know that he has the pieces in which you are interested?
How do you know that that particular peer isn't uploading to 5 other leechers at rates far above what they are uploading to you. How do you know that he has the pieces in which you are interested?
-
NitricJerkSud
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:54 am
Re: Favour seeders perhaps?
There might be another rationale for this... Favouring local peers.cpill wrote:What if you give more bandwidth to those that give you more bandwidth?
Cable and DSL companies wouldn't be crying quite so much if bittorrent peers INSIDE their networks shared MORE data amongst THEMSELVES.
By keeping peers exchanging data with other peers on the same subnets, netblocks, and inside the same infrastructure, there's a serious possibility that you'd automagically get better throughput, by not crossing a dozen routers on the way to another, more distant peer.
But I'm sure that minds might brighter than mine have already been thinking about this.
Re: make it fare to the seeders!
I agree with theCrank, who put it quite diplomatically. [Edit: Isn't that 5KB rather than 8KB, though?]
I've got 66KB/s upload bandwidth to offer on my DSL connection (after limiting). I know others have even less. The only way I can give back is by seeding for a longer period of time. I personally usually seed to a 2.00 ratio - twice what I take. I'll go past that if the swarm really needs another seed. I think that's fair, but it takes me a much longer time than it would take others with higher upload bandwidth. There's not much more I can do.
I understand the frustration, though. There have been times when I've felt the same way, even with my limited bandwidth. I think it's pretty clear that some people don't even try to give back their fair share. Unfortunately, there will always be people like that. When I feel that way, I try to tell myself what aleph posted above.
I've got 66KB/s upload bandwidth to offer on my DSL connection (after limiting). I know others have even less. The only way I can give back is by seeding for a longer period of time. I personally usually seed to a 2.00 ratio - twice what I take. I'll go past that if the swarm really needs another seed. I think that's fair, but it takes me a much longer time than it would take others with higher upload bandwidth. There's not much more I can do.
I understand the frustration, though. There have been times when I've felt the same way, even with my limited bandwidth. I think it's pretty clear that some people don't even try to give back their fair share. Unfortunately, there will always be people like that. When I feel that way, I try to tell myself what aleph posted above.
Re: Make seeding fairer with a tit-for-tat scheme!
I disagree, While there are people who don't want to seed or to seed less, much of them can't seed or only seed less.
I myself experienced this: There was something wrong with the order of the coloured cables in my internet cable (which I didn't know it was the cable) and when I would upload it would go to 16kb/s (in one second) and then crash totaly (means no upload speed and slower download) so I putted it on 0kb/s for months until I got it recently fixed now I am trying to get my upload rate back (it is now from 0.15 to 0.21 [DL 268,5GB UP56,7GB] My upload speed is 40kb/s so I can't seed quick but since I am not always downloading I seed more then I download, altough it takes longer.
If what you says happens and everyone would use that I wouldn't be able to download at the time I could not upload. And large torrents would take months to complete. It's not that I don't want to upload it is that I can't upload more then I do
I myself experienced this: There was something wrong with the order of the coloured cables in my internet cable (which I didn't know it was the cable) and when I would upload it would go to 16kb/s (in one second) and then crash totaly (means no upload speed and slower download) so I putted it on 0kb/s for months until I got it recently fixed now I am trying to get my upload rate back (it is now from 0.15 to 0.21 [DL 268,5GB UP56,7GB] My upload speed is 40kb/s so I can't seed quick but since I am not always downloading I seed more then I download, altough it takes longer.
If what you says happens and everyone would use that I wouldn't be able to download at the time I could not upload. And large torrents would take months to complete. It's not that I don't want to upload it is that I can't upload more then I do
Re: Make seeding fairer with a tit-for-tat scheme!
The thing is that the 211.8 GB difference between your download and upload amounts had to come from somebody; if you didn't take it, others would have gotten the files faster - more than 200 GB faster. The whole BT system IS to a large extent based on tit-for-tat, and in the global sense if there is no tat, there is very little tit.essiw wrote:I disagree, While there are people who don't want to seed or to seed less, much of them can't seed or only seed less.
I myself experienced this: There was something wrong with the order of the coloured cables in my internet cable (which I didn't know it was the cable) and when I would upload it would go to 16kb/s (in one second) and then crash totaly (means no upload speed and slower download) so I putted it on 0kb/s for months until I got it recently fixed now I am trying to get my upload rate back (it is now from 0.15 to 0.21 [DL 268,5GB UP56,7GB] My upload speed is 40kb/s so I can't seed quick but since I am not always downloading I seed more then I download, altough it takes longer.
If what you says happens and everyone would use that I wouldn't be able to download at the time I could not upload. And large torrents would take months to complete. It's not that I don't want to upload it is that I can't upload more then I do
Kudos to you for trying to make up lost ground, but perhaps you would have gotten it fixed earlier if you couldn't download while your system wasn't working? We all pay for bandwidth and most of us can get more if we pay more. Cooperation and flexibility is one thing, but why should someone contributing zero upload bandwidth be able to take everyone else's bandwidth? I don't buy the "I don't have it so it's OK if I take some else's" rationale. If everyone did that there would be no BT. For that matter if everyone contributed less than what they took, BT would be a crappy thing indeed.
BTW, you CAN upload more than you do. All you need to do is stop downloading and seed for awhile. By my calculations, assuming your upload speed is 40 kilobytes/sec (rather than 40 kilobits/sec) it would take you about 2 months to upload 200 GB.
200 GB = 200,000 MB (I read somewhere that 1 GB = 1000 MB rather than 1024 MB, but I may be wrong.)
200,000 MB x 1024 = 204,800,000 KB
40 KB/s x 60 seconds x 60 minutes x 24 hours = 3,456,000 KB/day
204,800,000 / 3,456,000 KB/day = 59.26 days
At that point, you will have given back what you have already taken up to this point from others in the BT community. Almost.
Re: Make seeding fairer with a tit-for-tat scheme!
First of all, it wouldn't have been faster because I already had much problems with that cable (replugging it in and out for 15 times before it works is not fun, but I am not the one to handle those things in my home.) Also it doesn't cost me anything to upload, My parents pay monthy some money and I can upload and download as much as I want (well that is not 100% accurate, it says i can upload and download for "normal use")
Also I am already uploading more then I am downloading (I have always a ratio of 2+ and mostly 5+) and I don't want to stop downloading...
Also I don't want to have my computer on for 24 hours, that would mean I would have problems with sleeping (the sound is annoying) and letting my parents paying to much for electricity. I think I have a ratio of 1 in a few months, and then ofcourse It would still be going up.
But then still my point: If it would be like your idea, (aside from my ratio lets say i have a ratio of more than 1) I would have an upload speed of 40Kb/s mostly for downloading 1 torrent at a time the upload is 5-10Kb/s (becuase i have 3 uploading torrents too) So it would take 4,8 hours to download a movie of 170MB but if I would download 5 movies at a time it would be even less... And altough I seed more then I download I would have to wait hours to download a movie? I think what you want Is to instead of looking at Up spead you should look at ratio.
My ratio is now 0.21 and If you would upload then 1/5 of your normal speed to me It would be less a problem for me. since my ratio is then going up and when I have higher ratio you would seed more to me.
Also I am already uploading more then I am downloading (I have always a ratio of 2+ and mostly 5+) and I don't want to stop downloading...
Also I don't want to have my computer on for 24 hours, that would mean I would have problems with sleeping (the sound is annoying) and letting my parents paying to much for electricity. I think I have a ratio of 1 in a few months, and then ofcourse It would still be going up.
But then still my point: If it would be like your idea, (aside from my ratio lets say i have a ratio of more than 1) I would have an upload speed of 40Kb/s mostly for downloading 1 torrent at a time the upload is 5-10Kb/s (becuase i have 3 uploading torrents too) So it would take 4,8 hours to download a movie of 170MB but if I would download 5 movies at a time it would be even less... And altough I seed more then I download I would have to wait hours to download a movie? I think what you want Is to instead of looking at Up spead you should look at ratio.
My ratio is now 0.21 and If you would upload then 1/5 of your normal speed to me It would be less a problem for me. since my ratio is then going up and when I have higher ratio you would seed more to me.